Mandarin Month: Is it Offensive to Be Called a Laowai?

zerologic wrote:

I would heartily encourage you to have a chat with the ghost of MLK before engaging in any further debate related in any way whatsoever to racism as you don’t really seem to understand the connotations and power of what that word actually conveys.

I am a foreigner and I don’t find it offensive. Simple as that.

As to what connotations the word “laowai” has, the jury’s out there — as addressed above, the vast majority of the connotations associated with the honorific prefix “lao” are positive.

Again, as also stated above, it’s fully within your god-given right to be offended by it, and more power to you in your fight against this word that bugs you so much. It’s a tough cross to bear, being easily offended.

As for me, I’ve rarely been called “laowai” in 18 years here and when i have been called that, it’s rarely been used as a pejorative (except when used preceeded by “他妈的” or “傻逼” — which again, has been an extraordinary rare experience for me). 

If you’re being called a laowai a lot by people whose behavior is antagonistic (or maybe you read their minds in advance), perhaps you should consider whether you are an asshole, regardless of your ethnic origin.

Are there racists in China? Certainly, just like every place in the world (rather unfortunately).

Do i think people who have called me “laowai” did so with a racist intention? Almost never. To be honest i think most of the times I’ve heard it, its been in rural areas of China or from someone like a taxi driver who has rarely interacted with foreigners, and its used not as a racist epithet but rather out of curiosity. When these people use the term, i do not take offense.

In summary, “laowai” i dont get my panties in a bunch about. “Tamade shabi laowai” , yeah, offended

So if a Westerner lives in Australia, s/he's a "racist colonialist oppressor maybe", and if s/he lives in China, they're a laowai? If you're a Westerner, you must have a pretty low view of your race. You have a self-contempt of which I do not wish to take part. Got anything nice to say? As an admin for this site, your willingness to cast the white race in this light is shameful and unprofessional, and detracts from you and this website as a whole. Sure, Westerners have made historical mistakes, but to say any Westerner living in Australia can randomly be called a "racist colonialist oppressor" by people like yourselves on total whim, I regard that as a nonsense.

admin wrote:

gorm_den_gamle wrote:

Admin, I can't believe you essentially repeated the same mantra "it doesn't matter". You did not acknowledge nor take any of my points into account (which is really bad debating, btw), for example 老外/外国人 continuing to be used by Chinese migrant communities OUTSIDE China of locals in the countries they move to, nor did you address the fact that Da Shan doesn't particularly like the word, despite being the poster boy for this article.

You said "you are a laowai". I'm not. I'm an Australian living in Australia. I know who I am. I have a spine and a backbone.

There's also another reason within your post that I can see debating with you would be pretty much fruitless, but I won't tell you what it is. I wonder who else can spot it.

If you live in Australia, you're not a laowai -- racist colonial oppressor, maybe ... laowai, no

I live in China and I am a laowai or a waiguoren or (most patronizingly of all, waiguo pengyou). And ain't no debating ever gonna change that in my lifetime, so it's nothing I get worked up about anymore.

So to me, it does not matter.

And if the masses of laowai in China want to march around steaming about this minor linguistic peccadillo, they can go ahead and rage.

I, however, as I stated above, choose not to pound my head against brick walls over such things as attempting to instruct 1 billion+ Chinese the proper use of their own language.

zerologic wrote:

admin wrote:

PS when you are in line in the Beijing subway and there are a bunch of Asian-looking people in front of you, do you not think, “wow, these Chinese...” well you racist little creep! Don’t you realize some of these people could be Korean, or Japanese, or Malaysian, or Vietnamese?

As you previously stated, 99.5% Chinese. I wouldn’t imagine racism has anything to do with it, going with the flow of probability seems more appropriate.

In another post Admin is angry at me about disliking the word "laowai", which lumps all white-looking people in the same pot. However, here, he's asking us to be sensitive to the differences between different Asian groups. This is a contradiction in his/her mind that he/she has overlooked. It's quite pathetic when one stops and thinks about it. Doubt this Admin will do that, though. Double standard.

zerologic wrote:

admin wrote:

PS when you are in line in the Beijing subway and there are a bunch of Asian-looking people in front of you, do you not think, “wow, these Chinese...” well you racist little creep! Don’t you realize some of these people could be Korean, or Japanese, or Malaysian, or Vietnamese?

 

 

As you previously stated, 99.5% Chinese. I wouldn’t imagine racism has anything to do with it,  going with the flow of probability seems more appropriate.

And if there were a bunch of non-Asian people, what would you say to yourself? "Wow, what are all these people who are from an undetermined non-Asian origin doing in the subway?"

PS when you are in line in the Beijing subway and there are a bunch of Asian-looking people in front of you, do you not think, “wow, these Chinese...” well you racist little creep! Don’t you realize some of these people could be Korean, or Japanese, or Malaysian, or Vietnamese?

Bond1806 wrote:

OMG, so much discussion about nothing. This high moral grounds of political correctnes that has sweapt the west today makes me sick. Everyone today gets offended by bullshit. Grow some balls people.

Yes, all of us foreighers here are laowai. Plain and simple. You are a foreigner here. So am I. Who cares. Get over it.

Well, one of us definitely has no balls, Bond. I assume you were responding to my post, as it came a week after mine and there were no posts for a long time. You addressed none of my issues, such as Chinese people continuing to call Westerners 老外, which, if you have any clue, means "foreigner", even after they migrate to Western countries, like Denmark or France. The indigenous people of these countries are definitely not foreigners. You're the one who needs to grow balls, because you fail to realise that such "foreigner" terms are based on a misconception from the start, i.e. on race. You are a 老外, not me. I am called the same as I introduce myself as, plain and simple.

I might add something I didn't mention in my previous post, Da Shan, photographed above said something along the lines of "the only real laowai are those who can't speak Chinese". Da Shan does speak Chinese. Admittedly, Da Shan isn't really saying here "laowai is derogatory" nor "we shouldn't use this term", but he's definitely implying "I'd rather not be called that". Interesting, then, that his image was chosen for this article. I regard people like you, Bond, as spineless. No backbone. I have a name, my own nationality and my own identity. If the next world superpower uses a name for me that basically means "outsider", then I regard that as significant.

Hi I am Awesome!

I was very relieved to read your comment. Finally someone with a sense of cultural awareness and basic manners and dignity.

An admin also commented on this same page, providing a long list of words which include the word 老, none of which would be offensive and then s/he goes on to then state on this basis that it's crazy to think that 老外 could be offensive. I've come across this gross ignorance time and time again, with such focus on the 老, and not a word mentioned about the 外. Now this admin has been in China for a decade, and his/her credentials are shared with so many other Westerners living in China or with a strong association with China, so I'm afraid there is little hope for a change in the use of "foreigner/洋人/外国人/老外" words for possibly a century. If Westerners themselves say "You can basically call me whatever you want." then we don't stand a chance.

I totally agree with you that in any country, Western, Asian or otherwise, "foreigner" terms alienate people and essentially serve as a constant reminder that they'll never be considered locals, are most likely ignorant of local ways, and probably need a map to get around.

What this admin and others don't seem to realise is that, perversely, Chinese continue to refer to Westerners as "foreigner/洋人/外国人/老外" even when they are visiting Western countries. So the common response among apologists for these expressions "You're in their country, so you are, in fact a foreigner." is a somewhat hollow argument, because the idea of "foreigner/洋人/外国人/老外" in their minds is clearly not based on the location being China anyway. So it's based on a misconception. And if we really want to go down the dictionary definition path, "foreigner/洋人/外国人/老外" should really mean ANYONE in ANY country who doesn't hold a passport for that country (or similar definition). But all too often, "foreigner/洋人/外国人/老外" words really refer to Westerners, White people, and we all know it despite common denials to the contrary. One commonly comes across racial concepts in China like "foreigners/洋人/外国人/老外 have big noses/sunburn easily/often have freckles/have red hair" etc, again demonstrating that the defence for these terms on simply "Oh but you are technically a foreigner" doesn't wash.

Essentially, people should call us what we introduce ourselves as. This is a rule of thumb that pretty much guarantees safety in any social situation. If someone introduces themselves as John, and I mistakenly call them Paul after that, it's an embarrassing gaffe. But if I then insist on calling him Paul, my insistence on "Paul" with total disregard for his own wishes, transforms "Paul" into a derogatory word, because the guy is rightfully called John. So all this rubbish about "foreigner/洋人/外国人/老外" not being derogatory doesn't make any sense, because people should call us what we introduce ourselves as. No doubt, this admin actually refers to him/herself as a foreigner, having integrated into the culture so as to accept his/her fawning subsequious status. 入乡随俗. But wait! Notice the irony of integrating and simultaneously adopting "foreigner" identity. Similarly I saw in a graded reader of the Chinese language, written by Chinese "academics", a Westerner actually introduces themselves by saying "我是外国人". The idea of anyone in their right mind going around INTRODUCING THEMSELVES as foreigners is so unlikely, not to mention grotesque, that it caused me to go back and put quotation marks around that word academics a few lines up. But this is seemingly what this admin actually does—introduces themselves as a foreigner—after all, it's not derogatory, after all the 老爸, 老大, 老二 evidence that he/she provided (although, that 老二 one didn't seem to raise any further comment, which, in the context of whether words are derogatory or not, seems quite laughable).

Occasionally I meet a Chinese person who is able to be persuaded that these "foreigner/洋人/外国人/老外" words are overused, to say the least. However, when I meet Westerners who rush to the defense of these words and argue in favour of their use and calling themselves such terms, I see little hope for Westerners to be respectable in any way to the Chinese people. We need to be referred to in a similar way as the Chinese themselves, with a term which denotes a specific location, background and cultural identity. To say these rights belong to all non-Westerners and that it's somehow PC to demand the same for Westerners is blinkered, obscurantist and bigotted in itself. I don't mind if some Whites/Caucasians don't like the term Westerner then that's OK. All of these terms are totally acceptable to me: White guy/him/her/Caucasian/Anglo/Westerner/Australian/<insert your own Western country> (And most definitely, in the case of Black Americans, or Aboriginal Australians and other non-White people from Western countries, they have exactly the same rights when it comes to self-definition and are no less LOCALS of the countries they are from. Apologies if any Black people feel alienated by anything I've said, it wasn't my intention, I'm just speaking for myself as a White person.)

The idea that clarity is needed when Chinese communicate with each other, so the "foreigner/洋人/外国人/老外" terms are needed is simply rubbish.

Don't get me wrong, "foreigner/外国人" are terms which may be needed and are unavoidable when they are used correctly and in context and towards all those who are not from the actual host country. With this usage, the word foreigner in say, Singapore, would refer to Western non-Singporeans, Chinese non-Singporeans and Japanese non-Singporeans etc etc alike. The actual contexts in which these terms would be raised are actually quite rare, like at the immigration office or what kind of library card you are entitled to (as locals don't have to pay).

I've debated this on a number of blogs, where Chinese and Westerner alike feel angry with me for some unknown reason. Personally, to disagree that we should be referred to in the same way as we introduce ourselves suggests some kind of cultural conditioning that runs extremely deep, if not something more dangerous like neurosis or delusions.

I Am Awesome wrote:

I'm not that concerned about whether the term 'laowai' includes any offensive words. It's moreso simply not fun to be constantly referred to as a foreigner. Laowai or waiguoren, what difference does it make?

If I was in my country of Canada, it would most certainly be considered offensive for me to point at people of non-white skin colours and shout "foreigner" or openly refer to non-Canadians as "the foreigner" in social situations.

I can certainly echo the experience of a preview commenter that laowai seems to be used when people don't think I can understand them and waiguoren is more likely to be used when people are at least attempting to be polite.

Personally, if people absolutely must refer to my based on my appearance alone, I could settle for being called a 'white person' in the language of their choosing, as that would be an accurate description of who I am, no matter where I am. However, simply calling everyone non-Chinese a foreigner robs us of an identity and simply designates us as non-belongers.

Don't think that Chinese tourists in Canada would appreciate being called foreigners, even though when they are approach, they have no qualms about carrying on with calling non-Chinese laowai, despite the inaccuracy, given geography.

^ i've been here far longer than 10 years, and i rarely hear it used in a hostile or disparaging context. I can see how some people through the lens of their own cultural background take offense -- because where they are from (typically multi-ethnic immigration-heavy countries like the US), calling someone "foreigner" would be inappropriate, impolite or plain racist.

I am particularly perplexed by people who say 外国人 is OK but 老外 is not. If you are going to take offense at one, then by all means be offended by both as they are almost identical terms.

In fact astrong argument can be made that laowai is MORE respectful than waiguoren. lets look at similiar usages here:

老婆 - laopo - wife - inoffesnive

老公 - laogong - husband - inoffensive

老师 - laoshi - teacher - inoffensive

老朋友 - laopengyou - dear friend - inoffensive

老爸 - laoba - dad - inoffensive

老百姓 - laobaixing - ordinary people / the masses - inoffesive

老板 - laoban - boss - inoffensive

老大 - laoda - oldest child, leader - inoffensive

老二 - laoer - second born - inoffensive

老家 - laojia - home - inoffensive

老乡 - laoxiang - someone frowm your hometown

老外 - laowai - foreigner - OH GOD SO DEMEANING and BELITTLING and CRUEL and RACIST 

Come on